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Thursday, June 23, 2005

Burned Up About the Flag Amendment


It’s a grand old flag, but it’s only fabric.

It’s a symbol or emblem or banner.

It’s a Nike swoosh, or a red, white and blue Pepsi can. It’s the Chihuahua in the Taco Bell commercial; it’s the Golden Arches. It is not the sneaker nor the beverage nor the burrito nor the hamburger.

It’s THE American logo that can give us goose bumps by just looking at it -- but it is not America.

It still is just fabric. (And, what I really hate, it is now sometimes newspaper quality paper!)

Still, the current administration and the fanatics who support suppression of freedom want to revisit the old so-called flag burning constitutional amendment. Actually the wording says desecration of the flag. If they had their way the constitution would have more amendments than the Oxford English Dictionary has entries.

There’d be an amendment on flossing if they could get away with it.

That slap happy congress, ready at any moment to pass any amendment they can think of, has approved this misguided amendment and passed it on to the Senate.

Here we go again: Attempting to pass an amendment that amends the first amendment of the constitution.

Well, if that happens the first person I’m going to turn in is my neighbor who desecrates the flag by never taking it down, keeping it up in the dark, rain, snow so it is now tattered and bleached pink from the elements.

That is just as much a desecration of the flag as any idiot who’d take a match to it.

(Speaking of which, just how many flags have you seen burned in your life? Me? Not a one. So we are going to add a brand new amendment that would affect how many people? A super small group of crazies with a Bic, a flag and a bug up their butts?)

If that were the case, I might not care about this amendment to the first amendment – but that’s not the case. Once freedom of speech is eroded, so follows other freedoms. History proves this out.

Current history in the making, like the Patriot Act, shows how Bush et al wants to know what books we are reading. Wants public libraries and book stores to tattle on us.

Things have to be pretty bad when a bunch of peace-loving, soft-hearted, librarians get militant about such invasions of privacy and loss of freedom.

To me, the loss of freedom couched in the name of patriotism is one of the single most unpatriotic acts upon our people, our country and yes, our flag that could occur.

So, if the amendment passes I will demand that all flag facsimiles be banned from clothing, causing Ralph Lauren’s stock to plummet. I will insist that no 99 cent flags be sold at Memorial and Independence Day parades. No little toothpick flags for holiday cupcakes or hors d’oeuvre trays either.

I’ll scour my community pointing out the tattered abused flags that are left outside to brave the elements of the oh so patriotic people who own the pole.

And certainly no freaking paper flags in the Sunday paper. After all, how could we respectfully get rid of these things? We’d be breaking the law. So our homes would have to be littered with paper flags from the cellar to the attic. A fire hazard I might add.

I get tears in my eyes when I hear The Star Spangled Banner. The hairs on the back of my neck twitch. I get goosebumps when I see the American Flag. I am just as much a patriot as anyone in blog land or anywhere else. My relatives fought for freedom – in both World Wars, Korea, Viet Nam and in the mid-east. Some of them never came home.

My freaking heart beats red, white and blue too.

But this amendment stinks.

99 Comments:

Blogger Andrea said...

Have you ever visited Fort McHenry, where the National Anthem was written? If you get tears in your eyes listening to it normally, try listening to it there.

And then go to the Smithsonian where they have the original flag that Francis Scott Key was looking at when he wrote the song. Talk about goosebumps.

(BTW...I totally agree with everything you wrote!)

9:56 AM  
Blogger Weetzie said...

Hear her, hear her! She knows what she's saying! IDB

9:58 AM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Kistune says: Amazing that this discussion is even possible! Image talk of even dirtying a picture of Kim Jong Il in North Korea. Your whole family would be relocated to the "re-education" facilities.

Exactly my point!!! - that is the difference between living in a free country versus a non-free country and that's why I vehemently oppose amendments like this.

Suppose flag desecration (remember it doesn't say burning...so there's lots of interpretation of exactly what is desecrating the flag...) becomes a law. Also, with interpretation comes the wonderful selective enforcement of the law.


Then how about burning pictures of Bush or burning pictures of a geographical map of the USA? Or how about burning the words USA or AMERICA - and on and on.

Can you make a flag cake for the fourth or is that desecration? If the cake comes out bad and you have to throw it out, would that be desecration?

Patriotism and love of America live in our hearts and minds. These feelings are not made in the flag factory.

It would piss me off to see someone burn the flag, but he or she shouldn't be hauled off to jail for doing so unless the act of burning broke another law.

The constitution, should not be a flannel board where each administration can add to and take away what ever floats their boat.

We cannot legislate against assholes, never mind constitutional amendments designed for assholes.

And we can never legislate respect as much as we might like to. My opinion...

10:23 AM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Excellent point Kitsune!

Thank you for all your input...very well thought out and clearly expressed.

Side note re flags: Airport security has been told to give a close look to anyone wearing a flag lapel pin as terrorists have found that wearing these pins ( again just a symbol) make them appear to be America lovers.

10:57 AM  
Blogger sparklestone said...

I was talking to Miss Kate about this on the way to work this morning. I agree with all you say mb, it's just that I have a hard time caring about the fight concerning how we treat the symbolic while we have so much to fight for concerning the heinous ways we treat each other.

11:56 AM  
Blogger jg said...

i just want to know why the opposite of what is considered offensive to some people automatically means that it is not offensive to others.

i find all of those SUV's tooling around with "support our troops" magnets on them offensive.

i find religious conservatives who write letters to television stations complaining about marginally racy commercials and shows offensive.

i find blind "patriotism" offensive.

and if someone wants to hang a flag upside down outside their own house to show how they feel about the war and the government, they should be allowed to do so (at the risk of being ridiculed and outcast by their neighbors).

hopefully the senate has enough sense to not pass this...

11:57 AM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Andrea..I have never visited either place, but I would like to...

Weetzie and Andrea...glad I'm not alone in seeing danger where obsessive patriotism takes away the true symbol of our country: freedom.

12:27 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

sparklestone, I agree with you and Miss Kate.

Wouldn't it be nice, for example, if we could pass an amendment that what make it illegal to desecrate another young body in the name of a voluntary, trumped up war?

12:30 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Support our troops, bring them home

I hate the support our troops loops because it's as if they are assuming that you don't.

Has as much meaning to me as: Feed your kids! Wash your neck! Flush after going!

jg - a big ditto on all you said.

I have to surf by screaming evangelical hucksters, and I say, that's freedom, yet where are my shows?

Censored.

12:35 PM  
Blogger WILLIAM said...

I agree that this amendment is a waste of time and money. However, I am offended by people burning the flag. People just never realize how good they have it.

12:54 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

I'm offended too William. I'd bet mostly everyone in this country would be offended but for a few people who use this tactic to make some point.

Actually I'm offended by lots of things I see or hear that in my view are wrong.

1:00 PM  
Blogger sparklestone said...

One of the first things they teach you about being a librarian is that you should be offended by a portion of your collection. It is a great lesson and when I first had to put it to the test it was difficult and satisfying to conquer.

There is nothing wrong with being offended. There is something wrong with assuming that your offense in universal.

1:54 PM  
Blogger Sylow_P said...

William, I'm surprised people don't realize how close we are to losing everything we've got.

Flying the flag upside down IS patriotic. It's using our precious symbol to communicate.

Burning the flag isn't any different.

1:55 PM  
Blogger racingpartsales.com said...

I have mixed feelings bout this one MB. My bro took some pretty hostile gunfire and saw some brutal things while in the Corps. He defended every scumbags right to burn a flag or a even a cross with his life. We went through months and months of wondering if we would ever get to see him again. The thought of someone burning a flag bristles me pretty hard knowing they(the burner) probably would be protesting my brother on another day. I would rather they set themselves on fire, I might stand and watch or I might piss on them to put it out.

2:05 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Sparky...what you say makes sense. If I were in charge of books, there would be a crapload of books I'd want off the library shelves...for a variety of reasons. (Actually I abhor censorship...)

But, I can do that in my own home.

A public library should not reflect just my taste or values nor should it be a reflection of the head librarian's favorite reading list.

Well put Sparky...

2:08 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Sylow...yes, because the flag belongs to all Americans - not just a certain sector.

Today though, people seem to think that if you dislike the president, or the war, or radical religious groups, then you don't love America.

Not true!

2:12 PM  
Blogger Sylow_P said...

Yeah, it's a common misconception I think, that burning the flag must be a statement against the men & women who defend it. I don't think that's ever the case.

Even when someone in the middle east burns a U.S. flag, they're making a political statement about U.S. policy. They may also believe that Americans are going to hell, but that's not the message they're trying to convey.

2:19 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Jeff --The fact that your brother , fought for our right to protest, to keep our country FREE, is honored by maintaining freedom and dishonored by limiting it.

(See what Kitsune said about N. Korea)

When symbols mean more than what they are symbolizing, we are a country in great danger.

2:23 PM  
Blogger WILLIAM said...

Burning a flag as a way to communicate is ridiculous. Becuase the point of the protest is rarely heard. It get's lost to "They burned a flag." People get so mad at the flag burning that they won't hear what the point was in the first place. Sure you made the news flag burner but what was your point? I still don't know what you were protesting.
I don't want to take away anyone's right to burn a flag, protest or stand up and tell people whats on their mind but I ususally look at those people as though they are follish and then I don't want to hear their ideas.
Jeff, Thanks to your brother. We should never take for granted what we, as Americans, have.

2:23 PM  
Blogger racingpartsales.com said...

I am in agreement on the defending freedom remark. I heard today that the supreme court ruled in favor of the government being able to sieze peoples property, remove them and then sell the property to developers even if it against the homeowners wishes. Big corporate developers if they have the connections on a city council now can by law remove you from your domicile. Freedom and the constitution took a blow today.

2:33 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

William says: We should never take for granted what we, as Americans, have.

Yes so true...and the most important word in that sentence is the word HAVE. present tense

If this amendment passes then the word will have to change to HAD.
past tense.

Again, I've personally never seen a single soul burn a flag, and I get around!

So let's for discussion assume the amendment has passed.

How about tee shirts that say: America Sucks? or George Bush Sucks? or Fuck the USA?

Should we have an amendment about clothing..after all, we'd have at least one amendment based on fabric?

2:34 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Jeff...money will always talk and always carry more power than it should...

Do you know, off subject a bit, I just got an email signed anonymous friend, that told me I should shut down the comments on my blog before the "governement" reads it and puts me on a list of trouble makers?

Is this how we all want to live? Not me, come and get me and drag me away in chains if you will...but I will speak up and I cannot be stopped...just ask my husband!

2:38 PM  
Blogger Sylow_P said...

William, You're right that it's not the most effective way to communicate. But just because it doesn't 'speak' to us doesn't mean we have the right to make them stop speaking.

"From now on all protests must be in English, because frankly, if you start speaking Spanish, I stop listening."

2:58 PM  
Blogger sparklestone said...

Finally, Sylow, you say something right.

"English! It was good enough for Jesus...it's good enough for me!"

3:02 PM  
Blogger racingpartsales.com said...

MB, I will be on your side of the fence with my brother and everyone else I know and love to preserve your right to say what you want when you want. My opinion is let the opinions roll. Even your husbands opinion if you give him permission :) I personally do not believe that the government would find you a threat. They might find you to be a thorn in the ass somedays and they should. They screw up a lot. I believe the only thing they run pretty efficent is the mail service and their military. All of the government should be continuously discussed and those discussions should turn into votes. I dont agree with much of what Sylow said about Flag burning and misconceptions. I will stand up to anyone who tells him to shut up. Flag burning is such an emotional issue, You can not legislate emotion out of it. I say let the pieces of shit burn the flag. They could go to Arlington to gather their kindling. It takes that caliber of an individual.

3:11 PM  
Blogger WILLIAM said...

The point of a protest, to communicate, is to get your message out. If the message gets lost in translation what good is the message. You could insult me in Spanish, Russian or even Morse code. It does not hurt me becasue I do not undertand those types of communication. You could say wonderful things about me in German or Japanese and since I do not know those languages I will not be able to return the compliment. Am I wrong for not knowing these forms of communication? Don't I have a right to not listen if I want too?

3:26 PM  
Blogger Sylow_P said...

Go ahead William. Stop listening.

Although, I can't possibly fathom why you don't see the irony it your own comment.

If you don't understand spanish, therefore don't care if i insult you in Spanish, why the hell would you rise up from apathy to stop me from flag burning; a languageyou admittedly don't understand.

3:50 PM  
Blogger paintergirl said...

Another great post MB. I'm with you on this.
We moved into a house that the previous owners left theie flag in the basement. I very happily took it out for Memorial Day, My husband questioned this. I said, I still love America, despite current conditions. I very respectfully put it back in the basement until July 4th. I treat the flag with respect as do you and most people. But why make an amendment? It's just a time waster.

And the flag burnings in the middle east...staged. Trust nothing you see on tv, especially the news.

I have a shirt that says "support our troops-bring them home" on the front and on the back it says "no more blood for oil" I rarely wear it for fear I'll be stoned in the Stop & Shop parking lot.

3:57 PM  
Blogger RedPita said...

hey mary, here I am!

wow.. i take the morning off and i miss all this? maryb, you have to warn me before you start getting yourself red flagged at the FBI!

damn it, i hate coming late to the party.

i am with mary on this one.. although everyone else has made very good, valid and thought out points.

jeff, i think it is great that there are people like your brother out there, that make the choice and commitment to defend us, our rights and what they believe in. this country was founded on people like that. i do agree with maryb though... to take away rights is a shame and dishonering to the men and women who worked so hard to keep them for us.

------------
Mary said:
Should we have an amendment about clothing..after all, we'd have at least one amendment based on fabric?

the only good thing about that would be that would be, NO MORE AMERICAN FLAG BIKINIS.

thats almost worth it.

4:01 PM  
Blogger Sylow_P said...

PG, you wear that shirt in my neighborhood and I'm sure all the college kids would be happy to get you stoned.

4:01 PM  
Blogger RedPita said...

paintergirl, i bought one a few yers back that said "Where are the WMD" on the front.. and "weapons of mass deception" on the back..

i wore it to work. got a lot of odd, crazy looks. the only tip i made all day was from older lesbian woman. she tipped well thankfully. :)

4:04 PM  
Blogger sparklestone said...

Could I still wear my Hammer and Sickle Speedos?

4:04 PM  
Blogger paintergirl said...

Hey-I'm coming to your town Sylow! And I'll pay money to see those Hammer and Sickle Speedos?
Rita!Awesome shirt, but what is so wrong with the american flag bikini?
We could have a line of flag bikinis of all nations...

4:11 PM  
Blogger jg said...

i dont get how people don't understand the difference between protesting war/government and protesting the people in the military who are fighting for those of us who could never do it.

i would never, ever, say anything bad about any individual who is brave enough to do be in a situation with bullets whizzing by their faces and such...

i don't even care if it was just because they wanted a free ride to college.

i couldn't do it.

but, someone who is burning the flag is not giving the finger to those soldiers. the soldiers aren't fighting to protect the flag. they are fighting to protect the united states of america.

what the flag means to everyone is different. someone who is burning the flag in protest is making that flag symbolize something in particular. it could symbolize a disapproval of the president, the war, a particular law or amendment... the list is endless.

anyone with some form of intelligence should be able to decipher it depending on the situation.

i mean, if you hate the wal-mart corporation, does that mean you hate the cashier who works there because she needs to support her family?

4:14 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Paintergirl and the Ritapita - hi there!

Lively time here today...

paintergirl - I too love that damned flag and I'm against about 70 percent of what our government is doing and stands for under this current administration. The flag isn't a republican christian icon, it's an American icon and sometimes patriotic Americans have differing views and might use that icon to show how strongly they love our country but hate our government policies. If I thought burning the flag would bring home the troops I'd light one up right now and call the media to watch.

I keep thinking about Nixon..he lied and was kicked out of office. Bush lies and thousands are dead because of his lies and he walks around like he's god's mouthpiece.

Rita, that comment on the bikini is hilarious - I hate those suckers too...

Comment from a relative who served in Viet Nam (combat!) on flag bikinis: They draped a flag over my buddy's coffin, now women are draping it over their wazoos.

(He was laughing as he said it...)

He was not offended...actually he thought it looked cute...

4:21 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Rita and Paintergirl..forgot to say I love those tee shirts you both have...but Sparky's underwear intrigues me the most...

4:25 PM  
Blogger WILLIAM said...

Sylow, I didn't say that I was going to stop listening, I was merely pointing out the fact that I have the choice to stop if I wanted to.
If you want to you can insult me in any language you want. But if I dont understand the insult, is it really an insult.
My original point is flag burning usually does not get the protesters point across to the people it needs to get the point to. People cannot get past the offense to listen to the offender. The ofender may be making a really good point but they go about it the wrong way. Isn't there Irony in that.

4:28 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

jg - linking flag waving with patriotism and flag burning with "terrorist" acts is a way to control dissent...which is harder and harder to do in this free country we live in under the current administration.


jg says: the soldiers aren't fighting to protect the flag. they are fighting to protect the united states of america.

Bravo! Sing that loud and strong. If the flag was to be protected, they should stop bringing flags to Iraq where they are being blown up left and right.

Daily desecration of the flags is going on in Iraq, flags are torn to smithereens from suicide bombers and sneak attacks.

Oh yes, and people too.

4:29 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Flag burning gets attention --

(There is something wrong with me, the more we talk about this the more I'm fighting a compulsion to go burn a flag...I won't do it...but the compulsion is there.)

If this amendment passes I'd bet anything there'll be a hay day of flag burning in the US of A.

Flag burning in protest of flag burning amendments.

4:37 PM  
Blogger Sylow_P said...

You keep arguing that it's an ineffective way to communicate.

How on earth does that relate to your need to prohibit them from doing it?

Stay on target red leader.

4:38 PM  
Blogger WILLIAM said...

Blue Leader, no where in any of my comments does it say I want to prohibit anyone from buring a flag. As a matter of fact my comments say the opposite.
Death Star dead ahead.

4:48 PM  
Blogger paintergirl said...

Easy boys-save it for the Bush picture burning we'll have over at Mary's house.

4:58 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Kit - it's a conservative issue being pushed by the ultra conservatives who are catered to by Bush - it's his watch and he's the man so I do lay blame at his feet.

Dissent is not looked upon favorable by the prez - he won't even let his cabinet do it...

5:04 PM  
Blogger paintergirl said...

You are so right on target Mary. If there is a commet made that is not within the Republican speech police policies-it's called a liberal statement. And everyone who voted for W-who voted for him, just because they were so full of hate for Kerry-HATE the idea of liberals running this country. It didn't seem to be a problem when everyone was doing so well in the 90's under the Clintons.

5:12 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Whoa nelly, can I jump on this ride?

It's a slow road to hell, IMHO, when you can so easily ammend the CONSTIfuckingTUTION with such comparative trivialities.

The constitution was meant to be a broad and facile, nubile and supple, undulating with the ages. The changing times will affect the interpretation. This maleable quality is the very reason this document stands on it's own, to this day...such a different time from the year of it's birth.

FACT: If we slap ammendments onto the constitution every time we think we've got a good idea, we denegrate the strength of the original document.

Leave the constitution alone and there will be nothing to repeal. Let it be interpreted by individuals in the unique circumstances that present. No need to add to it. No need to subtract from it.


Again: You weaken the original document when you add an ammendment that nullifys the First and uncontested most important ammendment.

I have to say, ditto to everything Mary said, Kitsune you made a beautiful argument very coherant...sparkle nice parallel with the librarian story...I'm digging it people.

THINKING: The Constitution, man. A document designed by the founding fathers to insure (Not Give) our rights as people.

Ammendments should be made rarely and with extreme caution. This ammendment to me, speaks of the current megalomaniac in the white house...someone so high on himself he feels Godlike enough to force himself into an artifically created position in history.

What happened the last time we had a "prohibitive" ammendment? Hmmm....created a bunch of criminals by outlawing alcohol? Gramma turned into a criminal...mommy is a jail bird...and of course all this was fertile ground for the mob to gain a strong foothold. Excellent idea that was.

Please stay tuned folks for my hosting of Saturday Night Live this Saturday. I plan on singing a crappy song while tearing up a photo of Bush on camera.

Will I get hauled off to a Federal Lockup? Ooooh, me the paper ripper, sitting next to the flag burner on the group "w" bench...with mother rapers, father rapers.....

I just heard about this proposed ammendment yesterday. Is that on purpose? Is the right side of the aisle trying to sneak this by us before summer break? Hmmm..... smells kinda fishy, no?

I'm going to Alice's Restaurant. Anyone in? Bring your shovels and rakes and impliments of destruction.

6:08 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Kitsune...I really do think we agree more than we disagree...it's just labels and semantics after that.

I say less power and funding too...

I don't want to keep company with Cuba and China as countries that make flag burning a go-to-jail crime.

I want to live in the country that was created from the idea of freedom and has always been free.

I find willy-nilly amendments to the constitution worthless.

But, this is the first time the First Amendment will be altered...setting a precident for future amendments all limiting rights which is not what an ammendment is supposed to do, it is supposed to expand rights.

We had the alcohol ban, yes, but you see all the good that did...

Taught grandpa how to make bathtub gin and entrenched the MOB in this country.

Remember, people with money will always be able to drink alcohol, amendment or not, or burn flags...just as Michael jackson!

6:11 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

laurenbove! Great comment...we must have cross commented.

I love how you express yourself..obviously we hit a few of the same points simultaneously...

Haven't thought of Alice's restaurant in such a long time...I've got to look to see if I have a copy now...

6:14 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

paintergirl, missed your last comment..it sneaked in when I wasn't looking...

I totally agree...kindred souls are we...

Let's go to Stop and Shop someday on a field trip!

6:18 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

I hear that, Kit.

6:28 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Kit and LB - nothing better than a blood pumping, mind challenging debate...from Americans who care...I love all my commenters and appreciate this debate as Kitsune said, without personal attacks but with lots of passion.

Viva la passion! But, pray with me that it doesn't pass...

8:01 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

I need to amend my last comment...you don't have to be American to care about what's happening in America.

I care about a lot of countries that I obviously don't live in because I'm here...

I don't even astral project to other countries, so Along, if you're reading or Jac...I care very much what YOU think...

I love the whole world very much.

8:06 PM  
Blogger Susie said...

Very stimulating discussion. Last night I was too fried to fully participate, and I find that this morning I'm not in much better shape. (There's a reason my blog is full of goofy! It's all I have left after work.) Anyhow, I have had moments of wanting a flag-burning ban. But they were passing moments. Like you, MB, I have red, white and blue blood. My patriotism ranges from rational, practical, to highly sentimental. I have a visceral reaction to seeing a flag burned out of hatred or disrespect. My heart hurts; I cry. Symbols are never "just" symbols. They are among the most powerful, most evocative, most long-lived forms of communication we have. The flag is a powerful thing. What it represents is infinitely more powerful. I guess, ultimately, I say, "Go ahead and burn it. I find your actions ironic, and I find them fool-hardy, because you are burning the very thing that represents that which affords you the freedom to do what you're doing."
MB, put that lighter away ;)

Oh, while we're talking flags, I also have trouble with people who claim to love the flag but mistreat it. Those who fly faded, tattered, etc., flags. Not really "fly" them, but just neglect to take them down or care for them. After a flag has lived its life, it is to be burned according to specific guidelines. Scouts, veterans organizations, and the like, will do this for folks who ask.

9:49 AM  
Blogger racingpartsales.com said...

I too was very moved by MBs topic here. I am for freedom 100%, but get torn up with the emotion of the issue. I wonder deep in my being if the people so motivated to burn a flag because it is their right would stand up and fight for a racist who was burning a cross in protest. They are both forms of expression, both symbolic, both meant to spark emotion. Do you think the cross burners should be afforded the same freedom of expression?

11:06 AM  
Blogger sparklestone said...

jeff,

I am not sure that is the issue. I don't think that there should be a constitutional amendment against cross burning. From what I understand, at least in some places, you can burn a cross as long as it isn't for purposes of intimidation. No doubt there are huge grey areas here, but I don't think federal legislation would help. Now the power is in hands of the state and local voters. A much happier place as far as I am concerned

12:26 PM  
Blogger racingpartsales.com said...

I am in agreement there should be no amendments. I am just curious if those that feel they should be guarenteed the form of expression to burn a flag think that is an equal right for someone on the opposite end of the spectrum. Both are only symbols. Would a flag burner be standing at a klan ralley to guarantee thier right to protest under the label of free speech?

12:43 PM  
Blogger Sylow_P said...

Should they have the right to burn a cross? Yes.

Would I stand at a klan rally to help them protect that right? No.

The cross thing is an intimidation issue. They should pass a law that cross burning will only be allowed with proper fire permits and a cross no more than three feet tall.

1:06 PM  
Blogger sparklestone said...

The intimidation factor on this is tricky. If we were to imagine a situation were it wasn't being done as intimidation, I would say allow it.

However, for me the symbol itself doesn't really have any meaning for me. I would be curious to hear from people who have a connection to it.

1:09 PM  
Blogger paintergirl said...

I'm not really thrilled with the idea of seeing a flag or cross burning anytime soon. I once witnessed a cross burning in a field when I was a teenager. My friends and I couldn't couldn't have fled the scene quick enough. Would we have reacted the same way if it had been a flag burning? Probably not.
Cross burning not only is intimidation, it usually is followed by violent acts. Cross burning and various acts using the cross has been around alot longer than flag burning. Just look at those crazy Romans.
I am not saying the government should step in, though. I want the government out of as many issues as possible. On the same note, I don't want religion stepping up to the plate on this either.

Why have we never witnessed a Confederate flag burning? Or have I just opened another can of worms?

2:33 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

With my own kids I learned, a tantrum is only effective if there is an audience.

I would not like to see a burning of : a cross, a flag, an effigy (even Geo. Bush who I detest.)

I also am strongly for GAY RIGHTS so I would take great offense at burning Judy Garland CDS.;-)

Actually I am greatly concerned about burning in general --and what Bush calls the "climate change" or we all know as global warming which will kill everyone of us, republican or democrat, atheist or religious.

Our air pollution quality is killing us slowly...but we will talk about the morning after pill, Tery Schiavo, make smoking laws when everyday people are breathing in about 2 packs a day just from stepping outside of their homes.

This bugs the holy shit out of me. This so called climate change is not talked about because "they" want us to talk about symbols and other nonsense...It is done on purpose...get people riled up over here...so they don't have to think about what's going on over there.

It isn't about me or you...it's about all of us.

If I were the great arbiter of what was in good taste and what was right, what was art, what was obscene...it would differ from every single person who has so graciously taken the time to comment here.

It's exactly about what Sparky brilliantly illuminated as he should with that name.

I *should* feel uncomfortable about some books in the library, I should feel uncomfortable about some things I see in society...but it is not up to me or you, to decide what is and what isn't okay.

This is where dictators come in...they will tell you what you can do or not do. If you want someone to tell you how to think, a dictator will gladly do that for you.

So far, we have had freedom, so the KKK marches, hope no one attends, but then the Gay Alliance marches also.

This is democracy.

Anything less is despotism.

3:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just so you know, I don't like you or this forum you've created. YOU are an anarchist and not a patriot.

4:02 PM  
Blogger Weetzie said...

IDB again...I don't have time to comment just now and I will have to read all the rest of your comments. Sounds like a lively discussion.

4:22 PM  
Blogger Weetzie said...

oh man....now I am creeped out that I posted right after anon troll and no one else has said anything!

4:34 PM  
Blogger jos said...

Hey, Mary, long time reader, first time commentor. To put a spin on neo-con dogma: when flag burning is outlawed, only patriots will burn flags.

6:04 PM  
Blogger Susie said...

I hope you're OK, MB. Whatever's going on, hope it's quickly fixed, healed, resolved.

6:13 PM  
Blogger dashababy said...

Im with Susie,,, I hope everything is O.K.
Just so you know, I like you and your forum. :P

6:59 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Hey guys, I over-reacted.

(Thanks Kitsune..you said it so nicely...here should be a place where ideas and feelings should be freely exchanged)

A toothache and two could-have-been-serious ailments which family members disclosed to me today..but have been resolved (for the most part)...had me on edge.

So I want to say Anon, I don't feel horrible about saying what I said to you...but I sure wish you'd come out of hiding, write a blog, tell us all what you think and not just take a shot at me with no way to ever get back to you, to even ask you a question.

Anyhow, usually I'm calmer and nicer than I was today and I'm sorry.

I love my Kitsune who says he's right wing, I love my laurenbove who's on the other side. I love people who care about our country...did you ever think that without a right wing and a left wing you just can't fly?

I want my country to fly.

And, I hope Anon understands, with a flick of my thumb your comment could have been erased.

I'll let it sit there and hope you come back, hope you realize debate is where I learn more about your views and you learn more about my views and we both become better versed on the whole of America...not just our own inbred ideas.

Big thanks to all of you --

10:11 PM  
Blogger Susie said...

Oh, good to hear from you. Kept checking back to see if you were OK. And thank you, for posting such interesting thoughts, and welcoming respectful discussion by people of good will who may differ from you and one another. I salute you. Bad pun intended ;)

10:20 PM  
Blogger dashababy said...

Wow, Kitsune, very nicely put. Im in awe of your ability to express your point. Right on, amen.
Glad youre feeling better Marby. Youre also very articulate, I loved what you said and Jeff too, right on.
Oh God, Im old. I say right on. Power to the people and all that. bye.

10:20 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Susie, Dashababy, well aren't you the sweetest and kindest people to worry about me!

I am fine...thank you for caring.

I'm a bit ashamed I reacted so strongly to someone who can't be anything but anonymous...but I was having a "moment" which is now gone.

I'm back on track...almost...

forgot to welcome itsmelvin! Hope to see you again.

Jeff, thank you for your words. Yes, we differ on some small things, but I'd bet anything we agree on all the big stuff!

Susie, got to say this: everytime you leave a comment and I see Gumby I smile an ear to ear kind of smile.

(My freaking tooth is killing me!)

I think it's Ms. Plum's fault!

See her post on teeth hurting...{{{throb}}}} {{{{throb}}}

10:32 PM  
Blogger Weetzie said...

mb, checking back again...still haven't been able to read ALL the comments but have skimmed and gotten the general gist. Hope you are feeling better and your weekend is wonderful!! Hope all your pain and discomfort goes away quickly. =)

10:58 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Weetzie...thanks for checking back...I'm still up because the "tooth" --up to about a minute ago --...was still calling my name.

Aspirin, a stiff drink and 44 games of Jewel Quest have solved all my immediate problems.

Right now, I'm just suffering from swearer's remorse.

thanks for caring...

11:10 PM  
Blogger jac said...

MB,
I was probabily one of the first to read your post but refrained from commenting 'cause I know that it is a small dynamite.
As you mentioned me by name, a sort of tagging, I would rather respond, but would prefer to refrain from debates.
I fully agree with you Mary. why do you go for amendments when you are not able carryout the previous amemedments ? Respect of a country doesn't depend on flags. Don't you kill innocent people in your country ? Dont you burn them alive ? Don't you harass women in your country, though there is a law preventing it ? Or do you need a specific amendment for that?
I wont say anymore. 10 years before, I was under the impression that USA doesn't have any poor people, I now know, the opposite. I know that I will be stoned right now, but I will say.... flags my foot.

1:04 AM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Jac - America is not perfect. But we keep trying to improve and become better world citizens.

Misconceptions about other countries always exist. I remember going to Italy and I pictured immaculate streets and found graffiti galore and dog poop on the sidewalks.

But, I loved Italy!

9:21 AM  
Blogger Weetzie said...

Good Morning Mb, hope your tooth is better today. I just wanted to tell you that I love to play Bejeweled which I think is the same as jewel quest (?)
Still hoping you have a good weekend and stop with the swearing remorse already, don't waste anymore energy on that!

11:28 AM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Yes Ma'am Weetzie...I'm through being blue.

Going out to dinner tonight so I can play all day - what's better than that?

Thanks for caring...tooth is very calm now. I do think it was fixed by the non-stop computer game playing. ;-)

11:46 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Hey MB: Heard about your tooth and I'm damn sorry. I have a head I'd like to exchange, myself.

Great debate. You did pretty well w/anonymouses considering how hot the topic was. I posted a boring but beneign post once and got called out by a similar coward for no apparent reason.

I'd say your batting a thousand! Well done, patriot!

3:47 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Thanks LB..

I yam what I yam.

But you are a sweet potato!

5:54 PM  
Blogger paintergirl said...

I posted earlier but I guess the blog lords were not happy with me. Hope you are doing better MB. I hope dinner was grand!

7:50 PM  
Blogger jac said...

MB
I too love Italy, been there twice. I love America too for other reasons, I have never been there.

10:04 AM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Hi paintergirl.

I couldn't even get on your blog yesterday!

10:09 AM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Jac - we stayed in Milan...unfortunately we didn't get to see much more than Milan..but I just adored my time there...

10:10 AM  
Blogger sparklestone said...

We honeymooned in Italy. Fabulous. Ran into some anti-American sentiment re: Iraq. I would have like to explain that we all don't need cheaper petroleum products for our Humvees, but I guess we are guilty by association. MB, don't feel bad too bad about what you said to anon. You obviously aren't an anarchist. What you are is proud to be American but also ashamed sometimes at the connotations. Those who aren't ashamed either a) truly believe we are doing the right thing (more power to them); or b) blindly beleive what they are told by gov't, church... because that is a way of existing that isn't too taxing on the ole noggin'. (Guess which group I think anon is in.)

10:40 AM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Thanks Sparky...I really get mad at myself when I allow someone whom I don't respect to get under my skin.

What a romantic place to honeymoon...! I want to go back...

I've decided I'm not putting up another post until I hit 100 comments on this one...I like milestones.

11:30 AM  
Blogger Susie said...

Heeeheeee, I just popped over and saw 92, and thought, DAMN, it's FUN to get 100 comments, MB needs a 100 comments, I'm gonna do my part! So it tickled me to see your latest comment. YOU'RE getting over 100 without even having a celebrity drop in! Excellent, the attention is well-deserved. Although, IMO, in blogworld, there is not ALWAYS a direct correlation between "well-deserved" and # of comments. But this time, there is :)

Just so this isn't a gratuitous "stuffing the comment box" comment . . . someone on a local radio call-in program, where they were discussing the flag-burning issue, asked, "In Iraq under Saddam, would it have been illegal to burn the Iraqi flag?" And went on to say that any similarities to such oppressive regimes should be a red flag for us, no pun intended.

The issue reminds me of a guy in my church who is very active in the peace movement, was a Viet Nam conscientious objector, does not believe in war for ANY reason. I believe sometimes war is necessary (not this one, necessarily), so while I disagree with this man's absolutism, I applaud his saying what he needs to say. However, I am always mindful of the fact, or my strong belief, that he can say those things because there were people before him who did not feel the way he does, and died to help ensure that he has the freedom to speak out as he does. And wouldn't it be a damned shame not to exercise freedoms that were SO hard won? No easy answers.

4:23 PM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Susie, what do you mean no celebrity dropped in...?

YOU dropped in and you are a celebrity - just mention bootie flies anywhere in the free world and see who they mention!

Seriously, thank you for adding another comment and letting me comment without really feeling like I'm cheating here...but I am going to hold out until 100!

6:55 PM  
Blogger Andrea said...

I'll help you get to 100! And I'm another one of those (mostly) right-wingers like Kitsune, even if I agree with you on this.

Poor anonymous. To just drop in, leave a nasty comment, and then leave without leaving a forwarding address; s/he's missing out on all the fun ;)

1:38 AM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Oh Goody...now this comment will be 96 - I'm really dying to write about something else and fold up the flag - so to speak...

Thanks Andrea for helping me reach 100!

I think I had my blog for 3 or 4 months and only Laurenbove found me and commented...I remember thinking in the beginning...where is everybody?

7:15 AM  
Blogger Weetzie said...

Good Morning! first place i checked this morning looking to see if the flag thing is still going.....yep....well, I have been reading this debate and have yet to put in any real comment other than my "Hear her" comment which is my way of saying I agree with you! =) are we at 100 yet???

8:49 AM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Weetzie! you were 97 and this comment is 98 - where is everybody - I have a fresh post just lying in wait to put up but I'm holding out for the big triple digit comment award.

Even if I've got to write to myself a few more times ;-)
...thanks for posting...we're almost there!

8:52 AM  
Blogger Weetzie said...

hey...almost there! Ya know, a couple of times I came over to your site to see if it was updated, just saw the flag title and left which is why I missed all the action until later b/c it didn't accure to me that all the "happenin" was going on in the comments....duh!

9:18 AM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Weetzie, without feeling like I've cheated toooooo much, I will now leave this comment and bring myself up to the glorious number of 100 comments.

Then I'm going to post something new and get out of this room and get some of my work done...so later I can catch up on blogs I haven't been to in a while.

Thanks Weetzie for helping me reach my goal.

Thank you everyone for showing the true passion that our flag brings to our hearts and minds.

We are all patriots even if we have differing views. We all care.

#100 -- yeah!!

9:21 AM  
Blogger Weetzie said...

Glad to be a patriot and glad I could help! =) Looking forward to the new post!

9:27 AM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Weetzie! Thanks again...!

9:29 AM  
Blogger Susie said...

Woo Hoo!

9:53 AM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

Susie
..and the flag was still there...

Good thing I got to 100 or I'd still be sitting here refreshing the page tapping my foot!

9:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

YOU made my fourth of july with this post. You are a patriot.
You, and everyone who commented cares about our land, world, air, land, water, and PATRIOTISM.Again happy 4th to you marybishop.As a vet nothing pisses me off as much as using the flag as a decoration...that really pisses me off..nam vet if you care.

9:49 PM  
Blogger Squirl said...

I know I'm really late on this. I saw on Susie's site that you'd posted this. Whether burning a flag is the best way to get your point across, the true point is that we love our country because we are free to do so if we wish. I really don't believe that flag-burners are scumbags doing it out of hatred for the country. Well, maybe some are, but if we start eroding our freedoms (read:Patriot Act) then we'll be as bad as all the countries we say we're against. I love my country and am a patriot. I don't like what the current administration is doing to it and our worldwide reputation, though. If burning a flag were really the only way to show that and make progress then I guess I'd have to do it. I just keep hoping and praying that we can get back to a more moderate government that cares about the people again. Thanks for allowing my little rant here. I loved this post.

12:22 PM  
Blogger Nilbo said...

Ooh! Ooh! Can I play? I know I'm late and all, but I LOVE reasoned, intelligent debate (Anonymous #1 notwithstanding, of course).

I love this speech from the climactic scene from the movie The American President:

"Everybody knows America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship.

You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating, at the top of his lungs, that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.

You want to claim this land as the land of the free, then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest."

Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free."

*****

In fact, this may all be much ado about nothing, unless I'm misreading the very Constitution that these dopes are trying to amend. Because from what I remember (and I'm a Canadian, so I'm remembering back to University courses in U.S. History some (mumbles inarticulately a rather large number) years ago), it's not just Congress that has to approve this thing, it's 2/3 of the State legislatures. These are the same Legislatures that couldn't get their shit together long enough to accord equal rights to a majority of their citizens. I'm not sure any flag-burning amendment would zip through that process.

As for "Support Our Troops" stickers (and the dopey "Wear Red On Fridays To Show You Support Our Troops" campaign), wouldn't it be nice if you came across a bumper sticker that said "I supported our troops by buying body armour for a soldier that Congress and the President neglected to give him", or "I supported our troops by paying for a soldier's health benefits that the President cut back" ... or even "Support Our Troops - Keep the Pressure on Bush to Get Them The Hell Out!"

OK ... none of them are catchy, and there's no corresponding ribbon. Shows you just how weak a symbol can be.

1:01 AM  
Blogger mary bishop said...

anon, squirl and nilbo - I never knew you posted here...sorry to acknowledge your comments so late, when did you write them? I never got a notice...anyhow...loved the comments you put down....

8:37 PM  

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