Paradise Lost
Natalee Holloway – where are you?
Why were you allowed to go on this trip to Aruba when you were described as a naïve, straight-A student; a church-going girl who hadn’t dated very often?
Who thought that would be a good idea?
Only seven chaperones for how many young, naïve, island-unwise Alabama teens?
One-hundred and twenty four unsophisticated, unmonitored, teens raised on the buckle of the Bible Belt, were let loose in paradise where drinking and gambling are legal at 18.
But then again, who’s checking?
Someone wasn’t thinking very clearly when they set up this trip which would allow a young girl to stay out half the night at a bar, get into a car with three male strangers and take off into the dark in a strange country.
No bed checks even though the return flight was the next day? No one noticed that Natalee was gone for hours and hours until oops she’s not at the airport?
Mind boggling.
According to Caribbean Net News “there is a 'shark's den' on one side of the island and FBI agents have developed an interest in the area. The sharks are reportedly fed daily in that location to keep tourists safe on the other side.”
Someone should have explained to Natalee, long before she was allowed to go on that trip –not all sharks have fins, and the other side of paradise is hell.
There’s a trend today where the Senior Prom has become as expensive as a wedding used to be, and class trips resemble honeymoons. These events have been supersized with the help of well-off parents who want to relive their youth.
They are financing and approving of situations that would allow someone like Natalee to come in contact with danger and not even smell it or see it coming.
I know Mountain Brook, AL where Natalee was raised. I lived not far from there. It is a community that is almost Stepford-like with its perfect homes, trees, flowers, streets and inhabitants.
Everyone she came in contact with was a God-fearing, church-going, respectable member of the community with few exceptions. Everyone was financially sound, in this Yes Ma’am, No Sir town.
I’d bet her parents wouldn’t have allowed her to go one city down to the heart of Birmingham. I’d bet they’d cautioned her about Five Corners and the freaks, flakes and nuts that hang out by the Fountain.
Somehow, though, the Caribbean was okay. Cool to say your kid’s in Aruba celebrating her graduation.
Natalee could never have imagined what danger might lie ahead in the beautiful island called Aruba.
But her parents? Why didn’t they?
Natalee Holloway – where are you?
Natalee Holloway – where are you?
Why were you allowed to go on this trip to Aruba when you were described as a naïve, straight-A student; a church-going girl who hadn’t dated very often?
Who thought that would be a good idea?
Only seven chaperones for how many young, naïve, island-unwise Alabama teens?
One-hundred and twenty four unsophisticated, unmonitored, teens raised on the buckle of the Bible Belt, were let loose in paradise where drinking and gambling are legal at 18.
But then again, who’s checking?
Someone wasn’t thinking very clearly when they set up this trip which would allow a young girl to stay out half the night at a bar, get into a car with three male strangers and take off into the dark in a strange country.
No bed checks even though the return flight was the next day? No one noticed that Natalee was gone for hours and hours until oops she’s not at the airport?
Mind boggling.
According to Caribbean Net News “there is a 'shark's den' on one side of the island and FBI agents have developed an interest in the area. The sharks are reportedly fed daily in that location to keep tourists safe on the other side.”
Someone should have explained to Natalee, long before she was allowed to go on that trip –not all sharks have fins, and the other side of paradise is hell.
There’s a trend today where the Senior Prom has become as expensive as a wedding used to be, and class trips resemble honeymoons. These events have been supersized with the help of well-off parents who want to relive their youth.
They are financing and approving of situations that would allow someone like Natalee to come in contact with danger and not even smell it or see it coming.
I know Mountain Brook, AL where Natalee was raised. I lived not far from there. It is a community that is almost Stepford-like with its perfect homes, trees, flowers, streets and inhabitants.
Everyone she came in contact with was a God-fearing, church-going, respectable member of the community with few exceptions. Everyone was financially sound, in this Yes Ma’am, No Sir town.
I’d bet her parents wouldn’t have allowed her to go one city down to the heart of Birmingham. I’d bet they’d cautioned her about Five Corners and the freaks, flakes and nuts that hang out by the Fountain.
Somehow, though, the Caribbean was okay. Cool to say your kid’s in Aruba celebrating her graduation.
Natalee could never have imagined what danger might lie ahead in the beautiful island called Aruba.
But her parents? Why didn’t they?
Natalee Holloway – where are you?
posted by mary bishop | 8:31 AM
53 Comments:
As a dad this is probably the hardest job that I have and to know how to do without pushing them away so they shut down to what I am saying. I hate when my "speeches" turn out like preaching. If it is something I feel strongly about I will often try and disguise it with a story about something that happened to someone. My kids also live in a rural setting. I think they are shielded more while growing up, but when exposed to certain situations maybe more street smarts would be good for them. It may sound cold, but this is one reason I am glad that I have 4 boys. They may be exposed to a smaller risk of abduction.
This is just sad. At that age, with such a large group and small number of chaperones. You have many very good points here. You can keep you kids a bit unexposed, but expose them to whats needs exposing.
This reminds me of a time Sparklestone and I saw a kid riding his bicycle down the center island of a very busy road. He pointed and said: "That's what I call natural selection at work."
People are dumb, and instead of trying to better educate them (whether they want it or not) our cure is to try and dumb everything down to their level.
I feel bad for Natalee and her family, but I think it's far too late to start pointing fingers.
I'm a big fan of the "icky" feeling and think we should all support our children whenever that feeling pops up no matter who it is that is giving them that feeling.
I would not allow my daughter or son, (if they were raised in a sheltered super safe place their whole life...) to take off to Aruba under the circumstances that Natalee did.
You can have a very high IQ with a very low EQ as in emotional quotient -- where the individual has not learned some of the simple street rules I learned when very young...like no one, male or female, gets in a car with three strangers for any reason.
I agree with what you said Sylow. I also believe as you: I feel bad for Natalee and her family, but I think it's far too late to start pointing fingers.
Where I disagree is that it may be too late for Natalee but it isn't too late for a slew of teens contemplating such a trip without the mental weapons to ward off the predators.
And I am pointing my finger at parents lately, but they damn well deserve it, in my mind.
Many of them are dropping the ball on their responsibility which isn't to shelter their kids from harm and evil necessarily, but to equip them with the tools to live a life as an adult in this world we live in and not in some utopia we don't live in.
We seem to be a nation that promotes an extended adolescence which means so called adults have no knowledge of the real world because they aren't exposed to it.
Marby, I think its sickening the way people spend money on these kinds of trips for graduation or spring break. Hopefully what happened to Natalee will make an impression on these naive parents that send there kids off thinking they will be safe.
Kevin --I think the statistics shouldn't be culled from either B'ham or Aruba --
(which by the way has a low crime rate because they don't consider lots of things crimes!)
but from statistics culled from young girls getting into cars with multiple strange men after drinking -- perhaps the first time in her life.
The very idea that Aruba is safe is dangerous to parents or children if it allows them to suspend natural fears and good judgment they would most likely have about the city of B'ham...
which I loved and found perfectly safe...by the way, making my suburban neighbors crazy as they often said they'd never go into the city...boy did they miss out on some good restaurants.
My disgust comes from the fact that it takes a media blitz and a dead body for parents to learn anything. But they still won't actually learn to be informed and make sound decisions; they'll learn not to send their kids to aruba.
If our government gets involved, instead of trying to educate citizens of safe travel practices, they'll dumb things down and forbid anyone younger than 21 from leaving the country without their own legal guardian.
hmm, re-reading this I am reminded that I've not yet had my tea this morning...
Dashababy -- to me this is another example of the poor little rich kids -- their parents send them off to strange places with plenty of financial resources but no life skills to handle the extreme differences in culture.
B'ham, you can't drink...step on a plane and bingo, when you land you can have as much as you'd like...
No chance to understand the mind altering attributes of alcohol or the limits one should impose upon oneself. And that's just the drinking part...
Ah yes Sylow - I can see that new law coming soon...because most of the laws we have are for the lowest common denominator of society.
"But they still won't actually learn to be informed and make sound decisions; they'll learn not to send their kids to aruba", says Sylow.
This is the saddest fact of all...because I know you are exactly right.
This is a hot topic. But I don't think the parent's should be blamed. She was 18 (legal adult). If they could afford to send their daughter, as a gift or whatever, good for them. Parenting is a never ending challenge. Some people are better parents than others. I am sure they regret their decision to "let" her go. Hopefully other parents can learn from, not the mistake, but form the decision that was made. It's sad, really, but I cannot "cast any stones" at the parents.
Their mistake wasn't in letting her go. It was failing to teach her how to be an adult in the real world.
She was 18 so as an adult, even if her parents didn't want her to go, she could have made the decision anyway. I don't think the chaperones were being all that vigilant if they didn't realize she was missing until the next day. What about her friends? Didn't she have anyone?
Back in the day, we had a buddy system...you sort of kept tabs on your buddy and vice versa. This was a common sense deal we struck up and we were only partying in a well visted bar area of Hartford.
I don't know what went wrong or how. Sometimes, things just happen. It is human nature to try and get an explaination for the thing so we can control the thing...Never let it happen again. I believe in the randomness of the world.
Shit happens.
William, I have to side with Sylow on this...and be a stone caster with the hope that someone will think twice about doing the same thing to their child.
You don't hand a loaded gun to a toddler..which is about what occurred to Natalee.
What kid would refuse a trip to paradise with no curfews nor restrictions?
It's the parents that have to realize their child is not ready...probably because they've spent no time teaching her about the seemy side of life...protecting her from what isn't good and right and pure.
Some young women are very capable of going out into the world, alone, unchaperoned, at 18 ( so much so they wouldn't do it - would use the buddy system, would never get in a car, would watch their drink, dump a drink if they left it for a moment etc.)- some are no more ready to do that than the average 13 year old.
From the area that she lived, from the comments made about her naivety, lack of dating, belief that all people were good etc. she obviously hadn't acquired the skills to deal with the unpleasant side of life - or the knowledge that drinking and hormones are weapons in their own right.
As a society, we keep kids babies way beyond the time we should, and then at some magic number decide they're okay to go it alone.
Sylow...you said it and I underline it --Their mistake wasn't in letting her go. It was failing to teach her how to be an adult in the real world.
...believe me if you could see Mountain Brook you'd get an even sharper image of the lifestyle of people of that community.
It's right out of a 50s movie starring Jimmy Stewart...the real world is not a place most of their children have ever visited in any way, shape or form.
MB: What age is the cutoff where a child is ultimately responsible for herself? I don't think you can blame the parents for the actions of a legal adult.
My parents didn't have to teach me that the creepy guy in the corner of the bar trying to shake my hand all night was NOT GOOD. Like you said earlier...You get the "icky" feeling. It's common sense.
I don't blame the parents.
I know people who have sent much younger children farther away. How many college kids go to Spring Break? Are all their parents responsible for what their kids do?
Shit...I remember HS and College pretty clearly and I doubt my mom or dad would be glad to take that responsibility on their shoulders. No way.
She was a big girl.
She went with friends.
There were adults on the trip.
Her parents loved her.
I reiterate.
Shit happens.
Yup, she was 18 - but had she saved the money to go on her trip by working? Was she self-sufficient, living on her own? If so then I agree with you.
But this was a gift given by parents to children who hadn't earned a dime to go...children who were more sheltered than the average kid.
I just wrote about the Buddy System and you bring it up...somehow someone taught you that two females to one male was better odds than three men and one female in a car no less!
Shit happens far more often when unwise choices are made...in fact an awful lot of shit happening is a direct result of prior acts that led the way.
Which brings me back to my initial feeling on this...that she was ill prepared for a trip to Aruba and the lifestyle she would be exposed to than someone like you, for example, who practiced the buddy system...as did I by the way.
I do hope that my strong opinions won't stop others from voicing theirs in opposition.
I'll just come right back at ya...because I'm heartbroken..I think this tragedy could have been avoided...
I so want someone to learn from this...and not just for some kid's future travel but for living in this world we have right now.
I think it'd be tough to expect a person to full understand bar dynamics if they've never been in a bar and never drank. So being in a bar for the first time combined with drinking for the first time, plus the first time some exotic stranger comes on to you, pretty much negates all expectations for that 'icky' feeling to mean anything.
Laurenbove, I'm betting you had been taught some better common sense than NH.
LB Using the term legal adult is interesting...you can't drink at 18 in the states, even though you are a legal adult...except she could in Aruba...
Becoming an adult is not a certain age, it's a process of having to take responsibility for your actions -- no excuses, and has to be started at Toddlerhood and kept up through out the years.
Knowledge of how to handle yourself in bars, beaches, with boys, also has to be taught...
Even then, as you say, bad things can happen.
Respectfully, If she had paid for the trip herself it would have been her fault and not her parents fault if she went missing? I'm certain that if she was fully self sufficient it would have suggested a certain degree of maturity that an 18 year old still living at home does not have but I don't think it follows that she was completely unprepared and unable to get her icky feeling because she didn't foot the trip bill. If that was the case they would never allow students to take trips anywhere.
Plenty of older children live at home and are expected to have a reasonable degree of responsibility...as in...
Don't get into a car with strangers.
I wouldn't get into the car with a family friend on my walk home from school as a tiny girl. I'll never forget dear Norma begging me to "get in..it's okay..." and I flat out refused. No Way. I could barely tie my shoe but I knew that.
Let's say she had an alcoholic beverage or two...was that her fault or her parents?
Whose fault would it be if she kissed a boy she shouldn't have on the trip?
Where is the line between and 18 year old's responsibility and her parents? If I had known when I was 18 that my parents could be held at fault for my personal and emotional shortcomings... man, that would have been something!
The point of the buddy system is not to allow it to GET to the point where one female is allowed to get IN the car with ANY amount of males or females or ducks for that matter. You stay close to each other. Keep a watchful eye on each other... especially if you're a cornfed, gingham pinafore wearing innocent! If she had the buddy system in place someone would have known within say...fifteen minutes or so..."Where the hell is Nat?"
I agree that it is heartbreaking. I guess I am not as certain about the blame or prevention aspect. Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it..back atcha MB ;)
You can die in foreign wars at 18.
I don't remember being specifically sat down at 16 or any age and being told...when your in a bar situation don't get into a car with three guys.
I love it when you are respectful LB!
Ha, what a lively debate, I just wish we were all sitting at a table, talking this up together in person...
Except I don't meet with strange people even if they seem friendly and nice on the computer.;-)
Seriously, the part about paying for the trip - that would indicate some life skills were acquired because working puts you in contact with people outside of your own little pristine, safe world and comfort zone.
Saving money shows the ability to put off instant gratification, to learn appreciation for how hard it is to earn a buck. To not get what you want when you want it. To work for it.
And because I have enough Buddhist in me to think: you are where you are supposed to be...if you can't afford to pay for the trip by earning the money, maybe you're not ready to go on the trip.
How many 16 year old kids get a car for their birthday and an accident or worse within a few months?...they weren't ready to have a car handed to them...would have had a better shot if they'd had to work a couple of years to value it and maybe even value themselves enough to be careful.
I do whole-heartedly agree with you on where were Natalee's girl friends? Unusual that not a single girl was watching out for her...as you point out, which is common with women in these types of situations.
You ask: Where is the line between and 18 year old's responsibility and her parents?
I say a fine line depending so much upon how that child was raised. Was she given the tools to interact with non-like people in unusual circumstances? Were non-savory situations discussed with her? Was she warned and schooled in safe behaviors? and most of all is she now, exhibiting the charactersitics of someone able to deal with all of the world and not just a neat little corner of the world?
If the answers are yes, I'd say she had the knowledge and life experience to know she was engaging in very risky behavior...
otherwise my rigid digit is still pointed at the people who were supposed to protect her...either by keeping her home or teaching her the ropes.
LB --Re wars: I think if you can fight at 18 you can drink at 18 - but then again...I hate rules and see many countries with fewer rules - say drinking for example --with less problems with alcoholism or teen binge drinking...
Someone taught you the ropes I'd bet...a big sister? Cousin? if your parents didn't...
I appreciate the forum you are providing to discuss this issue. I have to agree with Lbove. Yes the parent's could have done a better job preparing their child. But they are not to blame. You mention today's world of rich kids and perfect life. Is'nt that what a parent is supposed to provide for their child. You state "We seem to be a nation that promotes an extended adolescence which means so called adults have no knowledge of the real world because they aren't exposed to it." Yet when her parent's expose her at maybe an too early age it's their fault when something bad happens. There is also a disagreement about the magic number of adult hood. When do you expose a kid to danger?
"You don't hand a loaded gun to a toddler..which is about what occurred to Natalee."
That is a strong statement.
They didn't hand her a loaded gun. They handed her an opportunity. An opportunity to make choices. Choices she made. And sadly and the real blame goes to the choices and the men that are responsible for her missing/death.
I do not honestly think that her parents were thinking that a trip to Aruba was like handed her a loaded gun.
There are too many people in this world that blame their own parents for their shortcomings we shouldn't be trying to blame other parents for other peoples problmes. blaming her parents for her demise is like saying that the lifestyle of the US was to blame for the 9/11 attacks.
The people to blame are the ones who are the perpetrators of the crime. Not society. Not parents.
Again thanks for the forum to discuss and my intentions are not to offend merely to offer a different perspective.
Hmmm I did much more dangerous things when I was older than 18 - at 18 I was pretty darn careful...
But my walks on the wild side were always tempered with escape routes and I'l do this if he does that..kind of thinking.
I don't think I was ever naive after age 12 or so...I just wasn't brought up that way. I lived in a borderline neighborhood -- stuff went down around me.
I have children..so there goes the unprotected sex thing..ha ha.
I have driven without a seat belt...because I flout rules sometimes just for the fun of feeling free.
I forget to lock the doors when husband's away on a business trip...but I have two large protective canines to help keep bad folk away...
Oh I know, I smoke cigarettes - there's my major walk on the wild side. Now who should I blame?
And bottom line, I keep hoping that the lesson of Natalee's disappearance will be passed along...that this will never happen again...
No Way, man...no one taught me any ropes in reference to conduct becoming a female underage (in US) bar guest.
I was taught my whole life, general values that I appreciate...and Natalee's being such an excllent gal as described by all that knew her, it sounds like her mom and dad did too.
Crimminy! They love their daughter. They did right by her. She was loved, fed, did well at school, had friends, and I make an inference from all her other good care...she was taught right from wrong. But as parents, often that's all we can do.
Should such a situation happened to me, I'd hate to think of my parents blaming themselves for not giving me a proper "bar talk" or "3 guys in a car talk" and thus being a party to the harm that came to me. She was eighteen...not eight.
love,
me
I really hope it never happens again too, MB. It's speaks to your huge heart that you feel this deeply and I love you for it. It's just that in my mind, and maybe I'm just to jaded, it will happen again. No matter what any one does.
On the way big quantuum scale, I feel it's random. Out of our control. We're a bunch of quarks teaming on the head of a pin. One is bound to fall off the edge. It's not because it's bad or poorly protected. It just happened.
William, if we all agreed all the time I don't think anyone would ever learn anything new or expand their horizons or maybe second guess an opinion or open a mind to a new and different thought.
This is great fun -- so much so I haven't done a lick of work yet today.
I maintain you can't drop an unsophisticated, unworldly person into the middle of a totally different world without preparation --
I meant you expose children to dangers that CAN happen ( tv, news papers, general discussions, personal stories ) while they are still in a safe environment...
trying to discuss it later can be too late.
I believe the opportunity N's parents' handed her was inappropriate unless she had no curfew at home, had been dating for a while, had experienced alcohol, and knew what effects it had...you know, stick your toe into the water before you dive in...
or perhaps her parents also were extremely naive and never thought their daughter would ever...(fill in the blank)
Everybody's daughter does the same things...from the rich to the poor world round...
My deepest hope is that parents who buy these trips as presents for their children will understand just what dangers lie ahead, and maybe put the money to better use.
We had a recent fiasco here. The cops find a suspect in the parking lot of his high school. They place him under arrest, and he resists, starts throwing punches at the cops. So, they taser the little bugger. What happens next?
His mother comes unglued, not because her gang banger son resisted arrest, but because they used a taser instead of just beating him to the ground the old fashioned way. Now, the whole friggin state legislature is drafting pages of laws governing when a taser is appropriate.
Parents allow their kids to believe they're invincible. Mommy will always be there to deal with the mean police officer who did his job. Daddy won't ever let anyone hurt his little girl.
As a society, we are all responsible. As parents, these people are doubly responsible for any misconceptions they allow their children to form about the world outside of their little utopia. If they don't teach their kids that the world is a dangerous place, they've not only done their children a disservice, they've done us all a disservice.
LB - being taught right from wrong in Moutain Brook - remember I lived a few miles away..is totally different than the rights and wrongs in other parts of Alabama where I'm sure she never set a foot.
The beauty of such a perfect area can lull one into thinking the whole world operates on this level of safety, politeness, and security.
N had been seen in the company of those three men for a few days before the disappearance...still no friend -- not a single one, no chaperone bothered to question what was going on?
There were a lot of breakdowns of responsibility in this case...
Random to me is you walk outside and someone you never met jumps you and pulls you into the bushes.
If you are keeping company with a group of young men, in a bar, then in a car, way over your head and then something happens at 2 or 3 AM I don't find this random.
My mother would call this tempting fate.
I hate to say it and will bring wrath down upon me..but in certain areas near where I lived in AL - 18 was 8. Childlike behavior was encouraged and bad things were covered up rather than discussed.
Sad but true, we can talk about this forever but it most likely won't save a single person from being hurt...dammitall!
Wow-what a debate. Fantastic!
Now, allowing this kids to go to Aruba, not the best idea. I do think it should have been researched. From what we've heard on the news and by how MB describes this town (and so many other places like it) a girl like this is like catholic school girl. She was loved by her family but given the attention of 3 men in another country, it was probably exciting. And then bad things happen sometimes-as this discussion has been saying. I come from a background to not trust anyone. It's hard to live by, but I've also honed in on my voice inside, and i guarantee you, I was not listening to that voice when I was 18. I was allowed to go on a bike trip through Europe when I graduated from high school. My parents felt it was safe, because it was through the church and well physical exertion on kids tends to wear them out. I was too tired to sneak out of my tent and hook up with any frenchman. I'm not sure what the answer is.
Are kids really adults at 18? My blog talks about sending these kids off to war. I don't think it should be allowed. How about the kids on these senior trips that died of alcohol poisoning?
My head hurts.
Even if you teach a child at any age that there is right and wrong, the child still makes the decision to do right or wrong. A parent's job is to guide their children thru life. Even if the child is 30.
Guide.Not rule.
We teach kids they are invincible so they take chances. But we don't want them to feel too invincible. We let them learn from our mistakes and their own. The ones they make the most impact our the ones they learn for themselves.
Stupid is as stupid does.
I have a challenge. Show me the perfect parent.
wow my head hurts too...
Mountain Brook a modern day Eden? Well if she was from an area where they aren't able to understand right from wrong the way the rest of us do, perhaps it was natural selection?
Hey, you bite the apple...you pay the price.
(joke)
HI paintergirl...re enlistment...if the age requirement for enlisting was 25 I think there'd be a lot fewer enlistees...with age does come wisdom and realization that one isn't invincible.
Here come Lauren and William with the aching heads! Sorry did I do this too you fine debaters?...
I keep running up here and typing wildly...so I'm a bit disjointed in what I'm saying...what I meant to say is in this area of AL - the rights and wrongs that would be witnessed or learned are not about situations you might find in let's say NY city. Might be about telling a fib or being a few minutes late for curfew...innocuous wrongs in a world where everything is pretty much all right.
It isn't a cross section of society but a gated we-are-all-alike community with no diversity and little crime...lots of money.
Of course, there are no perfect parents, but parents should always try to perfect their parenting skills.
I don't think it's good to treat your child like they're invincible...I think it's deplorable to try to fix all their problems for them, never allowing them the skills to find ways to fix their own problems...(age appropriate )
I would do just the opposite...show them at every opportunity how this action could have caused this tragedy.
The of the best things a parent can do is tell their kids: I'm not perfect..I make mistakes..then explaining what mistakes you made..and letting the kids know that they're not perfect either..nor is the world.
No magic age for maturity..it depends upon years of increasing responsibilities and privileges and watching how that particular child rises to the occasion.
I have to find something to cook for dinner....be back later but have fun without me.
Gee, if there's no such thing as a perfect parent then I guess it would be unfair to place any standards on anyone's parenting.
I don't thin NH was allowed to make enough of her own choices BEFORE she went to Aruba.
I agree with sylow-just thinking about all the dumb things I did when I was in college...My parents loved me, but I was VERY over protected and I could not wait to be set free. If the bars hadn't of been in my windows (wink wink) maybe I wouldn't have been so wild later on.
Sylow - Paintergirl...the typical teen of that area, and they way she's been described by friends and family would not have had many choices in her life.
She would do well in school.
She would go to church regularly.
She would not wear this low cut top or that too short skirt.
She would not befriend that boy from that school or that area of the town..
She would only mix with the country club kids. Her kind.
She would not curse; she would not sneak a drink; she would not do anything other than be a clone of all the other lovely long-haired, look alike Mountainbrookers...
Come on guys, we all know this type of city or place; these kinds of people who have all the answers and who's kids are destined to be the next generation of MTbrookers...the kind that believe that one prayer to god and a flock of angels will fly down, swoop them up out of danger...if danger ever is around.
Over-protected kids, thanks Paintergirl, I was looking for the word over-protected ,are known to be the wildest kids at the first opportunity given to them...
Over-protection brings the opposite result that the parent wants. Makes the kids ill equipped to function in the real world.
let the dictionary help me on this:
naive -- deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment; especially : CREDULOUS b : not previously subjected to experimentation or a particular experimental situation --made the test with naive rats--; also : not having previously used a particular drug (as marijuana)
Then take this naive person and stick them in the middle of the seven deadly sin river without a paddle.
There are many things I did at 18 or younger that could have resulted in me not sitting here reading this. Driving 100 mph down the center turning lane in a 40 mph zone comes to mind. I didn't die or kill anyone but a lot of dumb luck involved there. I just didn't know I was mortal and couldn't imagine I could kill.
I learned it though...luckily not too late. I remember seeing a wreck involving some teenagers, one of them lying in the middle of the highway, one stood crying with his head against a telephone pole. Why was that not me? Not because I was a responsible person. Not because my parents taught me better than that poor boy's.
Kurt Vonnegut writes in Deadeye Dick about the horrible aspect of humanity which allows us so easily to make simple yet costly mistakes.
thanks for the discussion mb.
Challenge- Show me the perfect child.
Why is there a need to blame anyone but the people who did this to the poor girl? Should we blame their parents for raising them to possibly feed a girl to the sharks? Should we send the parents of criminals to jail. People need to take responsibilty for their own actions or inactions. If your child chokes on a hotdog and dies is it your fault for not feeding the child yogurt or jello or some puree'd (sp?) hotdogs. No but it may be your fault for not knowing the heimlich and then you would would have to suffer the guilt and anguish. But there is no Heimlich for this particular case.
William, I think you're still missing my point. NH's parents had 18 years to teach her hoe to do the Heimlich on her own.
Yes, NH should be held responsible, but I think parents should hold themselves responsible as well.
Sparklestone, 100 mph? I didn't think your vespa would go that fast.
Why do bad things happen, in general? Can bad things be prevented by discovering the particular source of one? Why is blame or the acertainment of fault comforting?
Oh why is the great ball in the sky that glows so hot and firey, that warms our skin and makes our food grow, why is the great ball in the sky. when it goes will it come back?
Don't be tempted to seek comparatively quick or easy answers to that which, with the current level of understanding is unfathomable.
Rather let the event stand for itself. It can be enough. It is powerful.
The infinite continuum of time will prove itself to be omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. It is the alpha and it is the omega. We are only stabbing at half truths with partial knowledge.
Here's something that we can all solve that will do the world a small bit of good.
I have two porkchops. What in the heck can I do with them for dinner?
Life: The eternal questions.
I still say: If she was THAT stinkin' naive, (read stoopid) it was natural selections cruel accuracy.
(still joking...sorta...I actually don't believe there was a degree of control in this situation. I don't think she could have been educated prophylactically speaking. It wouldacoulda happened to her regardless.)
Well, I really must decide what to do for dinner now.
Thank you MB for endulging me and my wackadoo rants. As always you've been a kind hostess and a delightfully witty and bright sparring partner.
You know I love you woman...and everyone that can take some time out to share beliefs and thoughts in a safe place.
Thankyou and Goodnight.
Uh, gotta apologize here for just how bad my eyesight is. I thought when I read your blogname that it said "Marbyshop". Ok, Im a dork. Sorry, "Mary". lol. Although I was trying to figure out where you got marbyshop, kinda like barber shop. I have visited your page about 6 times and just now, I see that it does not say Marbyshop unless you changed it to Marybishop in the past few days. I really do apologize. I hate it when I get peoples names wrong. Damn bad eyesight genes.
Sylow, I did not miss your point I just do not agree with it. But you have made my point twice for me...
"Gee, if there's no such thing as a perfect parent then I guess it would be unfair to place any standards on anyone's parenting."
And
"Yes, NH should be held responsible, but I think parents should hold themselves responsible as well."
Yes. Let them hold THEMSELVES responsible. We should not do it for them. We should not judge. If it was my kid, I would hold myself responsible but I woud not want you to be pointing fingers at me. There is already too much of that. I would want understanding............
.... and Pork Chops
William, I like pork chops, which I made tonight and were magnificent, ( or I was extra hungry) and I also like pointing fingers.
Dashababy...you can call me Mary or Marby...actually I'm growing fond of those letters side by side...what you don't know is husband wanted to name one daughter DARBY and being the spoil sport I am, I wouldn't let him.
Sparky - attempting to maintain my anonymousness(?)um anonymity(?) yeah, that sounds better -- anyhow... but losing ground each time I write lately, I must say what you did at 18 is the type of thing young people do. What I did a decade plus later...is not usually what people do.
Now tell me my excuse for doing 1400 miles on the bitch seat of a Harley in October when it gets colder and colder the more you near North and slippery in the rain and awful trafic, and you're old enough to know better?
LB, my favorite of all bloggers (I say this because the famous laurenbove was the very first person to put a comment on my blog!) (She makes me say it.)
You slay me.
I like it when you rant. I like it when everyone rants. I especially like it when I rant.
But you are and will always be dear to my heart for placing that very first comment and for being the eclectic, passionate, self-named wackadoo person who makes me smile and think and sometimes at the same time!
Glad you stirred the pot today...I love you too you wackadoo wonderful woman.
Um, that comment about not holding parents to any standards, that was me being sarcastic.
We can and do have expectations for parenting. Some are legal expectations. Failing as a parent is usually to squishy to actually hold them accountable, but we should be pointing fingers at bad parenting. We should point it out like any other public nuiscance.
I had a freshman college student ten years ago who would write paragraphs on his exams about how much he wanted to screw the blond who sat in front of him (this was a math class). Six months after he failed the class he went to jail for not just shaking his infant son to death but slamming his head against the floor too. In 3 months that baby went to the emergency room twice for broken bones.
I'm going to keep pointing fingers.
Hi Mary
All points raised are well taken and good for another one or two debates.
They are not going to get back their daughter. For Gods sake, please leave them alone.
Summer, I am hiring a cryptologist to help me with your comment...when I know what you said I'll comment on your comment..
TTTCI,BTWAVWDT! Hmmmmm
Jac - okay...not ot worry.
Kit, you say: healthy amount of skepticism...exactly...how do we teach this or does life teach this?
Sylow, I'm a finger pointer and will remain one. I don't have a cape and I can't fly, but I will be a champion for the young and weak, in every reasonable way I can.
Wow. Look what I missed. Outstanding comment page, MB and friends!
It was wild here Susie...parenting and talk of parents is a volatile subject...
I still hope and pray she can be found safe...
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